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mousehousevacs:
Again, I am sending support. Depression is a family illness and encompasses everyone and many aspects of family life when it is present. In terms of the financial issues in regard to paying for TMS: if insurance is not a viable option for payment, different doctors’ offices offer different options for payment. Some doctors have finance companies they deal with to pay for TMS, some offer payment plans of their own, some companies that make the machines may offer some type of financial incentives and support to assist those in need, etc. It is important to search this information out by talking with each doctor’s office that offers TMS in your area. Ask to speak with their TMS Coordinator, or TMS Technician (etc.), and then ask what kind of financial plans and/or assistance they offer, ask if they have suggestions as to resources they may be aware of that you are not, ask for direction and further contacts. If you do searches on the internet for doctors that offer TMS in your area, or companies that provide TMS machines (Customer Service Department), there may be more information to avail yourself of. Some universities offer research opportunities (clinical trials) that may include TMS treatments. If you live near a university contact their psychology and/or neurology department and ask. Don’t stop asking! Are there family members, friends, church or group affiliations that might help? Thinking outside of the norms or the box can result in treatment.
I hope this information is helpful. Stay in touch for support and to let us know how you are making out with your efforts.
Colleenmousehousevacs:
I am on my way out, and will get back to you more extensively in a day or two. Do not discount possibilities for your son considering and possibly being a candidate for TMS treatment yet.
Sending support and I will respond soon.
ColleenResponded in “Starting Tomorrow” page 5
mfg123:
I was scared too, actually terrified before and during most of treatment. TMS worked though in spite of my fear.
What are you specifically scared about? Would you mind sharing?
Colleentuwineza:
These articles just came in on TMS Google Alerts. They may be of interest to you:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/transcranial-magnetic-stimulation/home/ovc-20163795
Thinking of you.
Colleen
Tuwineza: I am NOT a doctor, I am a patient. I can offer informal information. First of all though, the issues you raise should definitely be discussed with your doctor. TMS still has various unknowns in terms of individual responses to treatment regarding depression and any off label use. Medication issues definitely should be discussed with your doctor. Also, your issues with relapse with addictions and TMS is another issue to be discussed with your medical provider and support team. TMS is a new treatment that has much potential, but is still only approved for MDD. With that said, there are studies being done that show positive results (NOT ABSOLUTE) in off label uses such as pain management, addiction, etc. I have spoken to my doctor and he has seen positive effects with some of his patients in these areas while treating patients for MDD. But again, he always refers to the scientific research that is published on a continuum. Your TMS medical team should be communicated with every step of the way throughout your treatment and with each issue that arises because of individual differences.
I had TMS five years ago this January and have had a different life since. I had MDD for 60 years previous, was on countless meds and combos, was suicidal, in hospitals, etc., etc. We all have a story. Now I am in remission, off all meds and am living a much improved quality of life. I have been advocating for TMS Public Education and just this month presented at the NYS NAMI Conference on the topic of TMS as a treatment option. What a change from being lethargic, depressed and unable to live a quality life.
I am sending support and encouragement for you to: !. Stay very connected to your medical treatment team, 2. Know that this may be an up and down path during treatment, but that does not predict the outcome. Some people, myself included, did not see positive results till after treatment ended and experienced a variety of mood swings during treatment, 3. Stay connected with your support systems and this site. TMS outcomes are apparent at different stages for everyone. Their are no predictors. Just travel the path one day at a time. And don’t give up unless it is suggested by your doctor. It can sometimes be tempting, but stay true to your goal of improved health.
Good luck. If you are up to it, post how you are doing!bmail:
I had TMS 4 1/2 years ago and am advocating for public education about treatment options. How do you feel about your overall improvement with TMS treatments? I am sending my best for success with your tapers and a better quality of life for you. You have to be very dedicated to improved health to sustain your commitment to TMS treatments for 2+ months. What an example of persistence! Please write and let us know how you are doing.
ColleenHi sunflower 78:
Just thinking about you. Keep connected so we can offer support and information that may help.
Sending my best.sunflower 78
I read your post and I would like to encourage you to continue your TMS treatments. I had the treatments 4 1/2 years ago. After 60 years of depression, hospital stays, a suicide attempt, etc., I am now depression free with 3 TMS treatments annually and no medication (I had tried 37 meds and combinations of meds before TMS). I did not see results from TMS until after treatments had ended. Everyone responds differently. After two weeks of treatment I was going to quit because I saw no results. Actually I went into a deeper depression (called the dip) which happens to some patients during TMS treatments. However, I emerged after treatment ended, slowly and methodically, feeling better and better. There are little glimpses of mood improvement at first as the brain acclimates to the results of the treatments. Mood improvement happens on a continuum. I live a full life now. Consulting with your TMS doctor and coordinator with regularity while on this journey is essential. There are no predictors of the results of TMS, however there are no steadfast indicators that it is not working either throughout the course of treatment. Patience and hope are two factors that need attention. There is no guarantee that TMS will work, even though often it is effective. If by some chance it is not, there is still HOPE. I worked with a woman out in a Western state who ECT and TMS did not work for. However she found a doctor who did work with her and now with the right med combination she is living a productive life, working with suicide prevention, has a career and a boyfriend. She is in her 40’s and has suffered all of her life. The important thing to remember is stay steadfast with the TMS treatments (as you consult with your doctor) and by chance if it doesn’t work there is hope with other options. The Brain Initiative (and research) is scientifically understanding the brain more and more each day. Recovery is possible! Please keep in touchGreg:
I am very sorry to hear about your sister. My prayers are with you and your entire family. I hope the TMS treatments are successful for you. Sending much support and encouragement for the journey you are all on. Please keep connected.Greg:
How are you doing?Sooxie and NeedMoreCowbell:
Just sending support and encouragement as you travel the journey through TMS treatments. I didn’t know what life was like without depression previous to TMS, but I can attest to the fact that for me, my life continues to progress in a positive, life altering manner. It is surreal to me that I can manage, cope and enjoy the diversity of life and life experiences. No doubt it is pretty rough at times, but not due to depression, just due to life’s offerings. The difference is that I do not have the roadblock of depression stopping me from coping, problem-solving and moving forward through those times. The journaling and use of DBT as well as improvements in guilt and controlling life choices are all strengths you are using to move ahead. It is inspiring!
There is much hope in your posts. I look forward to your future writings.Greg:
I am pulling for you every step of the way. You are inspiring sir, very inspiring!-
This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by
colleencasey.
Thinking of you Greg.
NeedMoreCowbel:
Welcome to this forum!
In a research article on the Science Daily website, dated 10/26/12, titled, “Magnetic brain stimulation treats depression independent of sleep effect,” it states: “. . . The good news is that TMS does not contribute to insomnia or oversleeping.” (I have heard several patients report some short lived effects on their individual sleep patterns.)
The article continued, “One of the many bad things about depression is that often patients cannot sleep. We think it’s a significant symptom,” Rosenquist said.
I found TMS Treatments quite tiring, almost having a sedating effect. That remained steady throughout the treatment cycle.
It is great that you have insurance coverage – Good Luck with your TMS Treatments. Stay connected.Interesting point Graffin about the number of pulses and the intensity of power configured when doing the motor threshold. When I returned for boosters a year later the doctor increased the percentage of the MT when he checked the original MT and I need only two treatments a year. Do you feel the increase made a difference in regard to your treatment outcome? Sounds like a question for consideration Sooxie.
Sooxie:
I hope you experience an uplift soon, but try not to fall into discouragement. You have more than 1/2 of your treatments ahead of you and the effects may surface during but possible not till after treatment. Sending my best.Sooxie:
I was on Adderal for ADHD and it helped with organizational skills but not with lethargy. I had TMS on the right side and in corrected the ADHD so I don’t need any meds for it now.Thanks for asking Greg. Once again the results of TMS have provided support as I confront some of the most difficult challenges resulting from the dysfunction of my past. What a gift. It is beyond description the path that I have been able to take and the roadblocks I have been able to confront since completing the treatment. It would not have been possible without TMS and a highly professional and gifted doctor.
Greg:
What great news! It is reassuring to hear of yet another doctor who is caring, respectful, responsible and professional in his/her endeavors to help with this illness. There is scientific evidence that gratitude is helpful in living a more positive life and you certainly reveal that you are in your writings. It takes a community or team to conquer most challenges in this life and it seems like that is a strong framework for your efforts. Keep forging ahead. You have a great combination of efforts from a multitude of sources for hope.Sooxie:
Loading the dishwasher as you describe may be a hopeful sign. Two weeks into treatment is a major victory! Sending continued support.Depression is an “invisible” illness, as there are no visible signs to the naked eye that the brain isn’t working with a balanced chemistry. Lethargy, depressed feelings, etc., are symptoms that often are not given credibility to validate the illness. To the non-scientific community, the effects of TMS treatment in the brain are invisible also as we cannot see what is happening to our brain chemistry during and after treatment. Therefore there is a long period dealing with the unknown.
Graffin could not have stated it more accurately. This is a long process so figuring out how to manage this reality can help support patience and tolerability throughout this challenging time. Meditating and mindful gratitude may be tools that could assist you in managing your emotions. Talk with your Treatment team. Their work with past and present patients could be a rich resource for coping strategies.
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This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by
Sooxie:
Sending my best as you start your second week. Let us know how its going.Patrick:
Thanks for responding. This is great news. I am glad you had the opportunity to advocate for yourself. I will look forward to your upcoming posts.Patrick:
Just wondering how you are doing.Sooxie:
My experience is similar to Graffin’s. I would say the lethargy improved 90%. On rare occasions when I am facing challenges that are particularly painful I may slip back into some old thinking and subsequent feeling patterns that last only a matter of hours. They are not prolonged periods of time. Hopeless thinking has dissolved and resulted in positive thinking for probably 98% of the time. But I think some of the down times are just normal, short-lived down times.
My thinking became much clearer and decisions have been much more effective and easier to make. Isolation is not part of my day or evening any more. Alone time on occasion is important and I value it. I have a quality of life I never could have imagined pre TMS.Camilo:
I am not a doctor but I have to support Greg’s advice, from a patient’s standpoint (and considering your doctor’s information about another patient) in regard to additional treatments. There is evidence throughout the posts on this site of the individuality in the amount of TMS treatments prescribed and administered and their outcomes. It is ultimately your decision with no guaranteed outcome, but would suggest giving heavy consideration to the option.
As far as the other issues you are dealing with. When I had the TMS and my depression went into remission, it did not resolve by any means the developmental dysfunction and tainted perceptions I had to deal with. That has taken therapy. But what TMS did to contribute to the working through of those issues (which is on going) is remove the roadblock of depression, provided clarity and stabilization to work on those issues. Progress has been more successful than could have been predicted. The road after successful TMS is not blissful and harmonious, it is met with the same challenges others have in life but with the concrete wall of depression removed. There are options to process and live life on much more positive and manageable terms.Sooxie:
You sound 48 to me! The fear of the unknown is difficult to deal with no matter what age we are. We want the treatment to work so deeply in our being, but we just don’t know if it will. It is challenging when we do not have a predetermined outcome for TMS. We do have hope, positive thinking and ownership of our illness which can provide us avenues to patience as we proceed.
Back in the day, four years ago, the research on sleeping during treatment wasn’t released yet. But as time proceeds so to does scientific evidence of what contributes to the most successful outcome to TMS. It’s an ongoing process as there are variables to the treatment that are being experimented with on a continuum.
Graffin’s sharing often speaks with great clarity of the details and intricacies of the process. Important information as you travel your path.Graffin:
Thanks for your response. The next seven months will be quite interesting. Sending good wishes for a continued upswing. The information you provide is very helpful.Sooxie:
Thought I would just past this along. I slept through some treatments. One of the reps from the company who made the TMS machine I had treatment from told me last summer that staying awake is what is recommended so the brain is as active as possible during treatment. Not sure of the source of his info but he is a resourceful rep. Your response sounds hopeful.Greg:
Insurance companies are progressing towards covering treatments past the initial set of treatments. Hopefully your doctor will be able to get involved in a request. Good luck with it.Camilo:
I hope this combination works for you. As long as there is another option to try then there is another chance that the depression becomes manageable. Please let us know how you are responding. Sending my best.Sooxie:
Hopefully the degree of discomfort lessens to a more tolerable level as treatment proceeds. This lessening has been reported by many patients. Stay connected to your treatment team with any and all issues. They may choose to make adjustments.
This is a challenging medical treatment for many. Try to keep your eye on your purpose and goal for choosing TMS treatment when discouraged. Graffin and Patrick have offered important information. As challenging as treatment may be for each of us individually, we are all worth the efforts for an improved life.GraffinLA:
I had the same feeling about repeating myself. However, when new people log in and post, the advice or information you gave previously may very well be helpful to them too. The new contributors may not have time to read all previous posts so I would say repost your info if you think it would be helpful.
Just to speak about your life previous to your depressive episode. I cannot identify with not being depressed previous to TMS. But when I thought about experiencing another depressive episode after success with TMS, I could understand your drive and persistence to return to that non-depressed mental health state. It seems like you use this as a motivation to drive you forward. Thanks for sharing and bringing yet another element of understanding to the challenges this illness poses. Sharing your goals and efforts is informative and inspirational.Camilo:
Thinking about you and wondering how you are doing. Have you decided on a follow up plan?Greg:
I am hopeful for your conversation with your doctor tomorrow. Let us know how it goes as I wish you success with this.GraffinLA:
Because I don’t have a medical background I was trying to think of an analogy that would be able to describe some of the after TMS Treatment process I have experienced. I don’t know if it is generically similar for others. What came to mind was this: the beginning of life starts and grows in the mother’s womb. At birth, when out of the rich, resourceful environment, the growth does not stop. Life’s beginnings were in the womb, but the life continues to grow on its own after birth. TMS seems to me to be similar. The brain gets its “start” during the electrical charge produced by the magnetic energy released during treatment, which causes movement and growth in brain chemistry. It’s not immediate. It takes repeated treatments to initiate the process and for it’s growth to respond on a continuum. And hopefully, it does. Once treatment is ended, the growth continues on its own until it reaches its peak (or adulthood so to speak).
The after TMS experience for me has been “wild.” I wish I had a more sophisticated descriptive but wild fits so well. I noticed small positive changes at first. It slowly continued to progress to more often, feeling positive, or not depressed for longer durations in time. Sometimes changes were noticeably abrupt. For example, I would say or do something I would never have done when I was depressed and then suddenly ask myself, “Did I just say or do that?” I lacked developmentally many skills needed for managing life as an adult and have had to journey through that territory with focus, mindfulness and intent. It has been a roller coaster ride, but one that I would gladly repeat!
The most striking and impactful change I would say though is the clarity that continues to develop in my thinking which allows for a continuum of growth in maturity, responsibility, insightfulness and action, which I hope never stops. It is a challenge at times, but one I would gladly engage in over the debilitating lethargy l used to experience.
I hope this clarifies some of the experience. I could write a book, the experiences have been vast and abundant but am trying to be cognizant of not doing that here.
I hope you experience this also. Life after TMS has a quality that seems impossible to describe but I hope I opened a window.
Keep connected.
GraffinLA:
This is the first time I have heard of the methodology behind the number of treatments you had. I find it fascinating. Would you mind sharing how you are doing now and how long ago you had the treatments? Do you need boosters?
This may be quite helpful to other patients. Thanks.Thanks for responding Greg. I think when TMS is effective is does evolve over time. My own doctor had TMS for depression and when we discussed the after treatment experience, we both noticed a continual motion upward (with moderate back slides occasionally) for about 9 months. It takes time for the process to activate the necessary movement in the brain and then continue until reaching a peak. What does your doctor say about your anxiety?
You are welcome Patrick. I understand your position. It seems like no matter what roadblocks we experience, quitting is not an option when we want to get well, so I commend your spirit and persistence. I am hoping for a positive outcome for you. Sending support as you proceed with treatment.
Greg:
How is it going? I am hoping you are/will experience a continual upswing.
sooxie:
You are welcome. I find in the TMS Patient community, many patients who have had success with the treatment are enthusiastic about supporting those considering TMS, going through the treatment and adjusting to a new life as a result of a positive response.
First, I think attitude, persistence and perseverance are essential elements when dealing with depression. Owning the fact that this is our illness and we need to figure out with the medical community how to manage it is an important goal.
Many of us entered TMS treatment with a desperate desire for a quick fix. Know that you are in good company. The treatment needs time, patience and consistency to work. Keep as positive and hopeful as possible and use your supports when needed as often as needed. They can bring clarity when we are experiencing the ups and downs. Again stay connected to your treatment team and to this sight. There are offerings from many supportive, insightful and intelligent people here. There are also resources here you may want to browse through that may give you additional information.
There are several depression scales that TMS Treatment Teams use to assess the depth of depression and a patient’s response to the treatment. I found those helpful, (not so much during the dip – as I did not understand at the time that the dip can be a normal course during some patients’ treatment), in allowing me to concretely observe my eventual positive response to treatment, especially after treatment ended. They usually are administered throughout the course of treatment as well.
If you find helpful tips during treatment too, please share as you will find you have a lot to offer too!Patrick:
I had to have the motor threshold reconfigured after two weeks. It is your doctor’s responsibility to stay informed of your response to treatment and make necessary adjustments. My doctor checked in every treatment.
I have to support Greg, although it is difficult, speaking up is the only way to get action whether the doctor likes it or not! It can affect your treatment. You have rights as a patient. Patrick do not settle. There are constructive avenues to get action if you need to use them, but first being courageous and insistent, once again because it takes courage to get through each day with depression, is the key. Your doctor has ethical codes of conduct he has sworn to follow. They are posted on line.
You should not have to wait three weeks to discuss issues with current treatments with your doctor. That is a long time and an irresponsible approach from a professional medical standpoint.
Again, I will say – do not settle. Sending my support. Keep us posted.sooxie:
I am not sure about wisdom, but a few ideas about starting treatment:
Everyone’s experience, is similar in some ways, but also very different in others. In lieu of this, it is important to communicate continually with your Dr. and TMS Technician. It is a medical procedure that you are undergoing and it has challenges like any other that with guidance and support from the staff and your diligence are manageable.
Your emotional response to TMS may fluctuate from feeling better to feeling worse (the dip), to maintaining, etc. It can be somewhat like a roller coaster ride. Try not to project the outcome based on 2, 10 or even 30 treatments. Response time is different for everyone so keeping connected to your Dr. and TMS Technician again is important. TMS takes time to work in the brain. Sometimes we can get discouraged through the course of treatment, use your supports and Dr.’s guidance. Let her/him assist you in assessing the outcome. Try not to do that yourself.
Good luck and keep connected.-
This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by
Camilo:
I am sorry that your efforts to undergo TMS treatments have ended the way they have. It is disheartening.
Have your doctors suggested alternative treatment options with you? Keep in touch because what others share may be of assistance to you or visa-versa. Earlier I posted a website of a speaker I heard, who had different but very challenging mental health issues, which describes his journey to finding ways and treatments to cope with his illness and is living a successful life, career too, and managing the many challenges of his illness. I can repost if you would like.Gandolfication and Claire:
Your posts about thoughts, ruminating thoughts, taking a break from our thought processes – working so hard at issues that are confronting the way we make decisions (which can be excruciating at times), live our lives or even experience our process of living is – well I just took a deep breath and said, “I can so relate.” I wonder if our processes are just our processes whether we are depressed or not. Those patterns have definitely slowed most of the time since TMS has been successful for me, but oh there are times I still struggle.
I am refreshed that this topic is on the table for discussion. Thank you Claire for your direct and legitimate question about taking a break. So often I have thought, “I wish I had an off button in my brain.” Gandolfication, I relate to your response. It was like hearing my own brain talk!
I recently listened to NPR’s Podcast, Invisibilia, The Secret History of Thoughts, in which they were asking the question, “How important our the thoughts we have?” Because I am in a struggle with this right now because of a particular recent experience, I am legitimately exploring this idea of how I am contributing positively or negatively to the outcome or interfering with an outcome to this situation in lieu of my thought patterns.
I have had breaks in this continual cycle of perseverating thoughts since TMS so I have to, in response to Claire’s question, state that it is refreshing and renewing, creating space for innovation in the approaches I take to life, problem solving and in particular relationships with self and others.
Thank you to you both. This has been enlightening and enriching.
Greg:
This is such great news! The effects of treatment don’t end with treatment. The results are active and progressive many times for several months. One of the benefits of successful treatment is defined effectively in your statement about staying away from toxic people. Before that seemed like a challenge to me because I didn’t trust my instincts that someone was toxic. I thought I was the one in the wrong all of the time. After treatment it was clear and apparent who was toxic and I began trusting that inner voice.
There are also good and bad days without depression, sometimes initially (after treatment) it is confusing whether we are depressed or it is a normal bad day and we are sad, upset, angry, etc. As time goes on you gain understanding and clarity about it.
Enjoy the process – it is quite interesting.Gandolfication:
I hear your reluctance or resistance to accepting some of the realities of depression. I have been through many reality acceptance challenges. Two things come to mind. For many years my therapist has, several times, reassured me and walked with me through my resistance to reality and slowly and methodically encouraged its confrontation. I have found the harder battle is the battle we wage resisting. This is not to say that confrontation is easy. It is painful, challenging and sometimes exhausting – however it is temporary. Resistance can be life long if we so choose. This has been a difficult but invaluable lesson. I am much more willing now to fight the shorter fight, to accept reality as it is, in order to get to the other side, which by the way is freeing and I have found in the long run, much less painful and energy draining. The caution is to be ready for each step of reality acceptance. It sounds like your work with this illness is diligent, conscientious, and intentional. Just speaking of the issue is a step forward, I am sure you are aware of that.
The second thing is that when harsh reality is the disappointment, there is no further to fall so the only way is up. On the other hand, when we live in fantasy, whether positive or negative, when the inevitable reality is knocking at our doorstep we have to accept our state of delusion before we can accept the facts of reality. Consequently we are dealing with two disappointments. This is so much more work. It’s all a process. Timing, confrontation, acceptance, healing – the steps are interconnected and should be experienced with respect for the process and for us individually as we endure, learn from and grow with the process.
Each day, each effort, each conversation, each acceptance brings more light and knowledge from which we can make our decisions as to how to manage our lives, our illness and our challenges.
I am with you regarding the sound of the cider vinegar/honey/warm water drink, but it tastes a lot like apple cider. It really is pleasant and I think the detoxification properties are working!
Inspiration is passing both ways. Your posts are informative, thought provoking, inspirational and articulate. Verbiage describing our individual efforts of persistence is something we all lean on. It is needed and helpful especially in our times of discouragement.
I am confident in the future of depression treatment and I believe with all of the scientific research in the neurological field right now, a clearer understanding and more effective treatments are on the horizon.
Keep writing. You are serving yourself and others well my friend.
Your welcome Greg.
I am hopeful for you and supportive of your HOPE! It is quite an experience to realize that you have spent an hour, a 1/2 day or even a day not feeling suicidal. Such a feeling isn’t it?
When I was depressed I unfortunately did not tune into this aspect of the illness – What diet and exercise could do to enhance management of my depression. But a year ago I started really working at it and I have lost 90 lbs and feel better than I have in my life. I cannot exercise at the moment with bone spurs in my foot, but before I was. I changed my eating a little, as I have been on a good plan, to affect my metabolism to see if I could continue to lose without the exercise and it has worked. Much slower but still making progress. I added the cider vinegar/honey drink that Jason talks about on his website in the morning and I am feeling great. (And actually it is quite pleasant) So depression management is like a puzzle with many pieces.
Looking forward to your posts about the continuation of your journey!
Claire, you are welcome. I agree communicating with others having similar experiences is quite therapeutic. Depression is an under estimated challenge no doubt and takes self-motivation, extensive research and trial and error to manage.
It is difficult when you are looking into treatment options and there are few if any peers available to consult with who have experienced it. I found that to be an additional frustration before deciding to engage in TMS.
After treatment, I have found it difficult to not have peers to talk with about the unexpected challenges and unknowns of recovery. This site provides a community for us all to communicate with, explore and be supported in all of our endeavors with depression no matter what stage of illness or recovery we are in.
I am continually on guard for signs of depression and am always open to and trying any healthy suggestions that are offered to manage depression because every May my depression creeps back into my life. I return to the doctor for two maintenance treatments and then I am set for a year. Depression is only a minute away.
I attend NAMI meetings and two Saturdays past, I attended their conference, “Hope and Healing. It was a series of speakers who have found ways to manage their mental illnesses. They offered several suggestions for their individual programs. What I came away feeling is that open societal discussions about depression and other mental illnesses are becoming more commonplace. There is more sharing and support available than ever before. The main speaker was very inspiring and I have included his website. You may find it interesting and helpful in some way. Jason Paden is the gentleman and his presentation is fascinating.
If you have questions about TMS I am open. I may not be able to answer them all, but Martha and other contributors to this site may or we may offer resources to obtain the info you need; we would do our best.
Thanks
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This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by
